Hitler's Death and Body Parts

Subject: Hitler
From: "add" badadd@uboot.com
Date: 5/25/2002 5:41 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3cf56a02.3665776@news.pacific.net.au>

Good evening all.

Excuse the ignorance, but my question is, what is the general
consensus,
what happened to Hitler ?
Was his body found ? and where ? Any information would be gratefully
appreciated .

Thanks

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "Don Phillipson" dphillipson@trytel.com
Date: 5/25/2002 7:21 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3cf72a73.868031@news.pacific.net.au>

"add" <badadd@uboot.com> wrote in message
news:3cf56a02.3665776@news.pacific.net.au...

> my question is, what is the general
> consensus, what happened to Hitler ?
> Was his body found ? and where ?

British intelligence commissioned historian
Hugh Trevor Roper to look into this in 1945,
published in book form a year or two later:
finding that he shot himself, his body was burned in the
bunker garden and buried, but later recovered in part
by Russian troops. Later biographers (up to Ian
Kershaw recently) do not disagree in any important
detail. There were 20 years ago various rumours
of a jawbone, tooth, etc. etc. preserved in the
Kremlin, in which no one has shown much interest
lately.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
dphillipson@trytel.com.com.com.less2
***********************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "DLS" sels7lds@attbi.com
Date: 5/25/2002 7:22 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3cf92ad0.960703@news.pacific.net.au>

There's a documentary that crops up on the History channel every so
often
which describes how the remains of Adolf and Eva Hitler, Joseph and
Magda
Goebbels and children, and Gen. Krebs were recovered and identified in
Berlin, then transported first to a Berlin suburb and temporarily
interned.
They then were transported to Magdeburg where they were repeatedly
buried
and exhumed, then finally exhumed, cremated (wouldn't only bones
remain
after 25 years?) in 1970.
In Moscow there is a skull fragment which is supposed to be Hitler's.
Supposedly some DNA testing has been conducted and compared to known
surviving Hitler relatives, and, yes, it is consistent. So likely the
fragment is genuine.
What I can't figure out is WHY the Soviets wouldn't come forth with
the
knowledge that they had Hitler's remains. Since Berlin radio
proclaimed in
the evening that Hitler went down fighting with German troops
defending the
capital (instead of truthfully reporting his suicide), it'd seem that
they'd
want to confirm that the monster was indeed dead to the world, AND, if
there
was forensic evidence of the suicide, that he did NOT go down
heroically.
The only possible thing, IMO, is that the condition of the remains was
so
poor that positive identification was impossible. Though an open-pit
cremation, using 200 litres of gasoline, would consume much of the
flesh, it
would likely leave the skeleton intact. So the entry and exit holes
from
the 9mm round that Hitler used to shoot himself (in the vernacular, he
"ate
his gun") should still be evident. As for using dentistry, the SMERSH
team
did round up a dental technician that had worked with Hitler's
dentist, and
she drew the mouth configuration which is supposed to match the
remains.
I'll make an observation about that. If Hitler shot himself through
the
mouth, unless he shoved the pistol deep inside, there's a good chance
that
either the discharge or the recoil would knock out some teeth. And
maybe
that's the problem. Again, I'm neither a dentist or a forsenic
expert, but
it's likely that the Hitler remains weren't in good enough condition
to make
a positive ID. That, coupled with Stalin's paranoia about Hitler
escaping,
could explain the Soviet's reluctance to come forth with their
findings.

DLS ************************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "Andrew Clark" aclark@cedarNOSPAM-consultancy.co.uk
Date: 5/27/2002 4:52 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3cf2aa97.1218835@news.pacific.net.au>

"DLS" <sels7lds@attbi.com> wrote

> What I can't figure out is WHY the Soviets
> wouldn't come forth with the knowledge that
> they had Hitler's remains.

This is partly due to Stalin's innate and paranoic secrecy,
and partly due to the fact that the USSR wanted to make sure
than "Hitler's grave" did not become a rallying point for
post-war Nazis. The British & US had the same objective in
mind when they burnt the remains of executed war criminals
in the crematoria at Belsen and Dachau and threw the ashes
into lakes and rivers.

I think it is rather fitting that the site of the
Fuhrerbunker today is a children's playground and nursery.

********************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: wb6wqa@hotmail.com (Tim Watkins)
Date: 6/4/2002 6:54 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3d06aa68.20129242@news.pacific.net.au>

"Andrew Clark" <aclark@cedarNOSPAM-consultancy.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<3cf2aa97.1218835@news.pacific.net.au>...
> "DLS" <sels7lds@attbi.com> wrote
>
> > What I can't figure out is WHY the Soviets
> > wouldn't come forth with the knowledge that
> > they had Hitler's remains.
>
> This is partly due to Stalin's innate and paranoic secrecy,
> and partly due to the fact that the USSR wanted to make sure
> than "Hitler's grave" did not become a rallying point for
> post-war Nazis. ...

On 8 May 1945, when the Russians autopsied Hitler's body, they
discovered trace amounts of compounds of cyanide in his body tissues.
They reasoned that Hitler had poisoned himself. During the autopsy,
they also discovered part of his skull missing.

Many of the Fuehrerbunker Germans were telling the Russians that
Hitler had shot himself; however, with the key pieces of the skull
missing from Hitler's head, on 8 May the Russians had no way to
independently confirm that Hitler had died from a gunshot wound.
Later the Russians went back to the shell crater in the Chancellery
garden and found the missing pieces of skull; however, by then the 1st
Belorussian pathological team had already completed their autopsy
report, and the first reports had already been sent by Zhukov's staff
to Stalin in Moscow.

Now Stalin is hearing and reading 2 different reasons for Hitler's
death. By 16 May the Russians were telling the Allies that Hitler's
body had been found, examined, an autopsy had been performed, and that
Hitler had poisoned himself. However, captured Chancellery Group
Germans, being transported back to Lubianka and Butyrska prisons for
confinement, were adamant about the fact that Hitler had shot himself
in the head.

This predicament was very uncomfortable for Stalin. Who to believe?
Stalin then reasoned that the pathological team in Buch had blown the
autopsy, and that the best thing he could do is put a stop to the
information Zhukov's staff officers were giving Ike's staff, the
Allies, and the press corps in Berlin.

On 9 June 1945, Zhukov was ordered to state that indeed the Russians
had not found Hitler, Hitler had surely escaped Berlin, and was
probably still alive. The Russians then stuck with this story, and
shortly afterwards Zhukov was moved from Berlin and reassigned by
Stalin.

Thus, it is my belief that, instead of Stalin having an "innate and
paranoic secrecy" about the possession of Hitler's remains, Stalin was
embarrassed and afraid of looking foolish in the eyes of the Allies
and the rest of the world because of the perceived bungled autopsy.

I also believe that, in late May 1945 when the Russians buried
Hitler's remains in Magdeburg, the new headquarters of SMERSH, they
were not concerned with Hitler's grave being a "rallying point for
post-war Nazis"; on the other hand, they had numerous rotting,
stinking corpses of major importance on their hands which they had to
get in the ground quickly, with the idea in mind that these bodies
remain in the possession of SMERSH at the direction of the NKVD in
case Stalin had further questions about the cause of death of Hitler.

Tim Watkins
***************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: wb6wqa@hotmail.com (Tim Watkins)
Date: 6/5/2002 11:07 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <adlcv4$221m$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>

"Toshiro Solo" <nospam_sniper968@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3cfdafdb.302680@news.pacific.net.au>...
> Why didn't the Russians simply bring the bodies back to Russia and
> leave
> them in the Kremlin as "war trophies" ?
>
> That would seem the most likely use for them instead of being carted
> and
> reburied by the SMERSH group.

As I recall, besides the bodies of Hitler and Eva Braun-Hitler, the
Russians had the entire Goebbels family, which included Joseph and
Magda and their 6 children (the bodies of the children not set alight
with petrol, only Joseph and Magda). They might also have had the body
of General Hans Krebs, who had also committed suicide in the
Fuehrerbunker on 1 May. During the trip from Berlin-Buch to
Magdeburg, the bodies were reportedly buried, exhumed, and reburied
along the way as many as 9 or 10 times because of the slow movement of
SMERSH and the relative distance between the two cities. Also, one
can imagine the state of decomposition and rotting that was taking
place with the bodies.

Pure speculation on my part, but perhaps the Russians felt that,
instead of attempting to move this rotting, stinking cargo clear back
to Moscow, with all of the inherent health risks and dangers, it was
better to proceed with the original plan and keep the bodies with
SMERSH and move the bodies the much shorter distance to Magdeburg.

Tim Watkins

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "Ken Cocker" ken@#NIXSPAM#phaethon.net
Date: 6/6/2002 4:53 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3d01d976.998632@news.pacific.net.au>

"Skriptis" <skriptis@net.hr> wrote in message
news:3cff009f.1228542@news.pacific.net.au...
> where are hitler's remains today?

The skull fragment and jaw, reputed to be of Adolf Hitler, are in the
custody of the FSB, the main successor to the KGB, in Moscow. The
skull was
displayed at the Federal Archives Service in 2000 as part of an
exhibition
called "The Agony of the Third Reich: The Retribution" to mark the
55th
anniversary of the end of the war.

The rest of the body was destroyed.

Cheers,

K.
---
Ken Cocker
London *****************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: efrank@memphis.edu (Ed Frank)
Date: 6/6/2002 1:30 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3d0200b6.1250952@news.pacific.net.au>

"Toshiro Solo" <nospam_sniper968@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<3cfdafdb.302680@news.pacific.net.au>...
> Why didn't the Russians simply bring the bodies back to Russia and
> leave
> them in the Kremlin as "war trophies" ?

Lack of clarity on the fate of Hitler and the
disposition of his remains was useful to the
Kremlin: they could put out disinformation
(eagerly snapped up by lefties in the West)
that suggested he was alive and being protected
by the Western powers.

Ed Frank
*******************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "Andrew Clark" aclark@cedarNOSPAM-consultancy.co.uk
Date: 6/6/2002 11:54 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <ado43i$2bug$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>

"Tim Watkins" <wb6wqa@hotmail.com> wrote

> On 8 May 1945, when the Russians autopsied
> Hitler's body, they discovered trace amounts of compounds
> of cyanide in his body tissues.
> They reasoned that Hitler had poisoned himself.

(snips)

> Now Stalin is hearing and reading 2 different reasons for
Hitler's
> death.

This whole story (and I wish I could remember the wannabe
bestseller that propagated it) is based on a false premise.
The KGB knew that Hitler took large amounts of cyanide and
arsenic-containing compounds because they had his mad
doctor's records, salvaged from the bunker. The initial
pathologist did speculate that Hitler may have taken poison,
but by June at the latest Stalin knew conclusively that
Hitler was dead and had shot himself.

> ... and shortly afterwards Zhukov was moved
> from Berlin and reassigned by
> Stalin.

Zhukov was moved because Stalin would not tolerate any
figure with an independent power base or popularity. His
downfall (and that of many others) had nothing to do with
Hitler's body parts.

> Thus, it is my belief that, instead of Stalin
> having an "innate and paranoic secrecy"
> about the possession of Hitler's remains,

I said that Stalin *had* innate and paranoiac secrecy, which
is perfectly true. That secretive and paranoiac tendency
manifested itself in the concealment of many facts,
including the Soviet possession of Hitler's remains. Try to
read the posts.
****************************************************************

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: wb6wqa@hotmail.com (Tim Watkins)
Date: 6/7/2002 6:59 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <adrhc7$33i6$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>

"Andrew Clark" <aclark@cedarNOSPAM-consultancy.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ado43i$2bug$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>...
> "Tim Watkins" <wb6wqa@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > On 8 May 1945, when the Russians autopsied
> > Hitler's body, they discovered trace amounts of compounds
> > of cyanide in his body tissues.
> > They reasoned that Hitler had poisoned himself.
>
> (snips)
>
> > Now Stalin is hearing and reading 2 different reasons for
> Hitler's
> > death.
>
> This whole story (and I wish I could remember the wannabe
> bestseller that propagated it) is based on a false premise.
> The KGB knew that Hitler took large amounts of cyanide and
> arsenic-containing compounds because they had his mad
> doctor's records, salvaged from the bunker. The initial
> pathologist did speculate that Hitler may have taken poison,
> but by June at the latest Stalin knew conclusively that
> Hitler was dead and had shot himself.

What is the false premise you mention? And what makes it false? And,
as you ponder that question, keep in mind that there are many who
believe that Adolf Hitler both simultaneously shot himself in the head
and bit down on an ampoule of cyanide when he committed suicide on 30
April 1945.

Russian pathologist Faust Sherovsky, when he prepared his autopsy
report in May of 1945, did not merely speculate on the cyanide
compounds found in Hitler's body tissues. He and his aide, Russian
anatomical pathologist Major Anna Marantz, chemically detected trace
amounts of cyanide. They also found shards of glass in his mouth
during the autopsy. This information is contained in the original
autopsy report prepared by Sherovsky in May of 1945. In recent years,
the Russians brought out the original report from archives in Moscow,
and have made some of the details of this report public. A British TV
film crew has actually filmed footage of the report, and it can be
seen in a British documentary.

By the way, in May and June of 1945 the Russian secret service, at
that time, was the NKVD, the forerunner of the KGB.

> Zhukov was moved because Stalin would not tolerate any
> figure with an independent power base or popularity. His
> downfall (and that of many others) had nothing to do with
> Hitler's body parts.

Zhukov, the commanding general of the 1st Belorussian Front, had
already defeated the Germans in the Battle of Berlin. Don't overlook
the fact that Zhukov's military assignment in Germany was completed.

> > Thus, it is my belief that, instead of Stalin
> > having an "innate and paranoic secrecy"
> > about the possession of Hitler's remains,
>
> I said that Stalin *had* innate and paranoiac secrecy, which
> is perfectly true. That secretive and paranoiac tendency
> manifested itself in the concealment of many facts,
> including the Soviet possession of Hitler's remains. Try to
> read the posts.

And try to read and view the latest details regarding this Russian
autopsy report, and bring yourself up to date on this subject.

Tim Watkins

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: "Ken Cocker" ken@#NIXSPAM#phaethon.net
Date: 5/26/2002 3:55 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <acri4j$1ni8$1@nntp6.u.washington.edu>

"add" <badadd@uboot.com> wrote in message
news:3cf56a02.3665776@news.pacific.net.au...
> Good evening all.
>
> Excuse the ignorance, but my question is, what is the general
> consensus,
> what happened to Hitler ?
> Was his body found ? and where ? Any information would be gratefully
> appreciated .

Adolf Hitler, according to witnesses present, died in his study in the
Fuhrerbunker in Berlin shortly before 4pm on the 30th of April, 1945 by a
single gunshot to the right temple from his own Walther 7.65mm pistol with
Eva Hitler nee Braun taking cyanide by his side. Hitler probably took
cyanide as well.

Otto Gunsche, Hitler's adjutant, oversaw the burning of the two bodies in
the garden of the Reich Chancellery using a stock of petrol ordered by
Hitler a few days before. The garden was under heavy bombardment by the
Soviets and the group - which included Gunsche, Bormann, Goebbels, Heinz
Linge (AH's valet) and Erich Kempka (AH's chauffeur) - had to retreat back
to the bunker after lighting the 'pyre' but without seeing that the
destruction was complete. Two guards in the garden later testified that the
bodies had been thoroughly burned and were unrecognisable as did the two SS
bodyguards commissioned by Gunsche to bury the bodies, Ewald Lindloff and
Hans Reisser. These testimonies have varied at varying times but are
fundamentally consistent on this point. Eleven days later the Soviets found
the bodies and the dentition of two dental bridges and a jawbone were
identified from records by dental technician Fritch Echtmann as those of
Adolf and Eva.

Hitler's teeth?:
http://cidc.library.cornell.edu/dof/germany/captioned/remains.htm#top

The bodies were exhumed and postmortems carried out on both before they were
reburied at a Soviet army camp near Magdeberg. A section of skull was
reported missing from Hitler's skull which, after an intensive search of the
Chancellery garden was supposedly found and shipped back to Moscow with the
others - these fragments resurfaced a few years ago and are subject to much
speculation as to wether they are really from Hitler's skull. The Russian
government claim they cannot afford to carry out DNA analysis. (see my
posting on the Third Reich Forum - a non-political history forum - as to
could/should be done with the fragments).

The fragments:
http://www.celebritymorgue.com/adolf-hitler/

Forum posting:
http://thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=23491#23491

Finally, in 1970, following a resurgence of German Nationalism in East
Germany and fearing that the burial site may become a shrine or focal point
for such, Leonid Brezhnev approved a plan to exhume the bodies and cremate
them properly. The ashes were scattered in the River Ehle, near the East
German village of Biederitz.

http://www.antipas.org/news/europe/hitlers_bones.html

I think those are the main 'bones' of the story 8^). Because no intact,
easily identifiable body was found there has been and will no doubt continue
to be speculation as to whether Hitler did escape and lived out his days
farming goats in Argentina or running a McDonalds in Arizona. To be honest
though, the weight of evidence on this one is with the above account.

Cheers,

K.

Subject: Re: Hitler
From: wb6wqa@hotmail.com (Tim Watkins)
Date: 5/27/2002 7:39 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: <3cf32315.11082886@news.pacific.net.au>

"add" <badadd@uboot.com> wrote in message
news:<3cf56a02.3665776@news.pacific.net.au>...
> Good evening all.
>
> Excuse the ignorance, but my question is, what is the general
> consensus,
> what happened to Hitler ?
> Was his body found ? and where ? Any information would be gratefully
> appreciated .
>
> Thanks
>
> Add
>
> UK

The question is not an ignorant one. Much speculation has abounded
about what happened to Hitler's body after he committed suicide in a
small ante-room in the Fuehrerbunker on 30 May 1945.

[Oops, that should be 30 April 1945. I tend to get ahead of myself on occasion.]

His body was found approximately 2 meters from the emergency exit to
the Bunker in the garden of the Chancellery. It was found
approximately 3-4 days after the end of the fighting in Berlin by the
79th SMERSH unit assigned the task of investigating the whereabouts of
Hitler after the Russians had taken Berlin.

Hitler's body had been placed in a shallow shell crater after being
placed there by members of Hitler's bodyguard detail at approximately
1540 hours on the aforementioned date. Petrol was poured on the
bodies of Hitler and Eva Braun-Hitler and set alight. Several of the
Fuehrerbunker Germans had told the Russians that his body was buried
in the Chancellery garden; a search then uncovered the bodies of
Hitler and Eva Braun-Hitler.

Hitler's charred body was placed in a wooden shell crate and
transported to the Russian pathological lab in Berlin-Buch, set up by
pathologists of the 1st Belorussian Front. On 8 May 1945, the same
day Europe celebrated V-E Day, the Russians, led by Chief Forensic
Pathologist Dr. Faust Sherovsky and Russian Anatomical Pathologist
Major Anna Marantz, performed an autopsy on Hitler's body. The
Russians found that the body tissues of Hitler contained trace amounts
of compounds of cyanide, and concluded that Hitler had poisoned
himself. The autopsy also noted that portions of Hitler's skull cap
was missing from his skull.

However, most of the jawbone with teeth were intact in the skull of
Hitler. A dental assistant, Kaethe Hausermann, and a dental
technician, Fritz Echtmann, were found in Berlin and discovered to
have significant information relative to Hitler's dental bridge and
teeth, as they had both worked for Hitler's dentist Doctor Hugo
Blaschke. They were separated and held captive by the Russians.
Hitler was positively ID'd through odontological comparison of the
drawings from memory of Hitler's teeth and bridge made by Hausermann
and Echtmann to the partial jawbone, bridge, and intact teeth in the
skull. These drawings were a perfect match.

After the post-mortem examination, it was determined that Hitler would
be moved along with the 79th SMERSH unit to their new headquarters in
the city of Magdeburg. There, the bodies of Hitler and Eva
Braun-Hitler were buried in an unpaved area at 30-32 Klausenerstrasse
in that city. The bodies remained buried until 1970 when the KGB, who
had assumed responsibility of the site from SMERSH (Soviet Military
Intelligence), made the decision that the bodies would be unearthed
for the last time, completely incinerated, and disposed of so that no
parts or portions of Hitler could be used to raise Hitler to the
status of martyrdom.